From the ground up 🌎
Launching a climate podcast, from soup to nuts
Quitting a full-time job in audio to go freelance? The prospect is either liberating or terrifying – depending on your perspective.
For investigative reporter and podcast producer Jordan Gass-Poore’, making that leap has been a wild adventure. She left her salaried job at CNN - to pitch, produce and host her own show.
Hazard NJ explores the impact of climate change on hazardous Superfund sites in New Jersey (these are locations contaminated by hazardous waste that has been designated by the US Environmental Protection Agency for cleanup).
The show is a production of NJ Spotlight News, the news division of NJ PBS, where Jordan is an independent contractor. Making the eight-episode show meant a lot of firsts for Jordan. Here she fills me in on what it was like working with a broadcast team, drumming up interest in climate coverage, and why you should be pitching your ideas to organizations, not just networks.
Where did the idea for the show come from? How did it begin?
I come from a small town in Texas that has a lot of toxic sites. And so this was a long, long time coming. I have been wanting to do something like this for a number of years, really beginning in 2017, when I did my first story about a Superfund site. And then when I found out New Jersey has the most [Superfund sites], I was like, this is the perfect location for a first season.
The way I pitched the project was that I would collaborate with a local media outlet on each season, with the same kind of template. For example next season might be called Hazard NYC, focusing on Superfund sites in New York City.
This is the first podcast for NJ Spotlight News. What were the challenges that came with that?
No one else I’m working with at NJ Spotlight News has any experience working in audio; they are TV first. So from day one it was about having to describe the process of audio and how it differs [from TV]. For example, I signed on in April and they initially wanted four episodes released by the end of June. I had to explain the process step by step and how difficult it is.
It’s not like a two-minute spot for TV. And that continues to be kind of a struggle: I just put together our revised production schedule for the next episodes. And I’m already getting the feedback, ‘why is it going to take so long to do it?’
That sounds tricky – how do you stick to your guns?
It is. I’m not going to say it’s been easy. There was one occasion where it turned into … I’m not going to say a yelling match, but I did raise my voice! I’m realising working at NJ Spotlight, and having worked at CNN [in audio], with broadcast folks – sometimes there’s a butting heads of expertise and knowledge. So it really is sticking to my guns ie “you hired me for my podcast / audio expertise, let me do what I do best”. And that involves me having the time and space to do that.
And luckily the executive producer at NJ Spotlight News who’s been overseeing the project, has been really good about being hands off, and being like: “you do the show in your voice, you write the scripts how you want to write the scripts. I’m here to make sure things are factually correct and that we’re not violating any weird rules for PBS.”
Is this show part of a wider push on behalf of the broadcaster to cover more environmental stories?
Definitely. A couple of years ago, they started doing more climate coverage and looking at the toxic legacy of the state. And this fit into what has already been established at NJ Spotlight News. They were very familiar with the subject matter.
I thought it was going to be a harder sell, and it wasn’t. Because I initially proposed this idea at CNN, and there was some real pushback about, this is not what our audience wants. They don't want climate coverage.
I heard that [and was] thinking, well, maybe CNN is not the place for me. So when I pitched this to NJ Spotlight, I was very pleasantly surprised to hear folks who were just as passionate as I was about covering those issues and wanting to see more.
I also think it’s very specific to their audience – people living in New Jersey – because New Jersey is the home of a lot of climate legislation. They get it, I think more than other states, because it’s part of their history as a state.
It sounds like you have covered the climate and the environment in the past?
I have, over the years, gone back and forth and done climate environmental coverage. When I was at CNN, I kept pushing and did some episodes here and there that had to do with the climate. I kept trying to shoehorn climate into a lot of topics, even around COVID-19, to see if it would stick.
It’s something that matters to you as a reporter.
It does, very much. Going back to when I was younger, in my hometown, [having] lived experiences and not really seeing the kind of coverage that I would have liked, inspired me to keep doing this. I’m very happy to see more and more places build up climate teams. I’m always just the pessimist who’s like, why didn’t you do this 15 years ago?!
This was the first time you pitched your own show – what resources did you draw on through the pitching process?
I’m a member of the Society of Environmental Journalists, and I utilized some contacts from that organization in the very early stages. When I had a one-pager for the podcast, I reached out to an environmental journalist named Amy Westervelt. And she’s been the mentor and cheerleader all along for this project.
She was very kind to get on the phone with me and really helped shape the pitch deck and everything for this show. It gave me the oomph I needed because it was CNN saying no, your idea’s pretty much terrible. And her saying “no, I think you’re onto something. I just don't think this is the right home, you need to find somewhere else”.
What do you think convinced NJ Spotlight News to green-light the show? What were some of the parts of your pitch deck that were really compelling?
I included what I saw would be potential successes for the show, in very simple terms, on one slide. I want to do this show because I want there to be accountability. And I had bullet points on one slide that listed accountability [goals], [including] that I want state and federal legislators to be able to take notice of these sites to be able to clean them up faster.
I was also very specific about who I wanted the audience to be. And I wasn’t just saying New Jersey people. I said the audience would be college educated; aged 25 to 55; people who were already interested in the climate but didn’t know much about Superfund sites.
We’re told when pitching to include our personal connection to the story, ie why we’re the right person to tell this story. Is that something you addressed in your pitch?
Yes. I wanted to be clear with listeners that I’m from Texas, I live in New York City. I wanted to explain why I’m doing this – and I do throughout the series; that because of my lived experiences with toxic sites, that it really doesn’t matter where you live in the United States, this is all something that connects us. And more than likely you don’t live far away from a toxic site, regardless of what state you live in.
One thing that struck me immediately in the writing is the way that you make complicated topics accessible with an anecdote or a metaphor. Tell me a bit about your approach to the script.
That was very intentional. I really wanted this show to be conversational. A lot of the interviews were the first time I’d heard of some of these toxins or sites, so I’m learning along with the listener – I wanted to make that very clear. I wanted to be transparent that I’m not coming at this as if I’m a scientist or expert. I became an expert while working on the show.
Oh, and I love horror, so I want to include horror references where I can!
What was your approach to finding characters who would add color to the story?
I leaned heavily on Michael, who’s the associate producer with NJ Spotlight News, because not only does he live in New Jersey but he’s covered the environment in New Jersey. And he has the rolodex, if you will, of contacts from past reports. So it really was like trusting his expertise. That’s why it was so important to collaborate with a local outlet.
What were you looking for in a good character?
I bow down to the experts that have been working for years, if not decades, on this subject matter. But to me, the people that really mattered were the people on the ground, living in the community, your everyday Joes. And the folks who actually lived through the Superfund site before it was Superfund site and lived through some of those wonky experiences when the EPA first came in, and were able to tell that history firsthand – those are really the folks that I wanted to speak with.
In episode one, for instance, we had someone talk about living on the site when it was a factory. I didn’t realize until I interviewed them, that the company actually had houses for employees on the site. And they lived there as a child. They sent me photos of them as a kid where you could see the factory in the background. It’s those stories that really got me.
How was it to wear multiple hats during this production – balancing the roles of reporter, producer, host?
It’s difficult. But I really liked the fact that I write the scripts, I record the scripts, and I also go and interview people and go on the sites, because I really think that adds to the flavor of the episode, and helps me write the scripts in my own voice. I’m so used to writing scripts for hosts. And I just see an added benefit of being the one to do the interviews, hosting and writing the scripts, because I have more control: these are the things that I saw, and I’m writing it firsthand. I think that it paints a more vivid story. I think it’s better storytelling, in my opinion, but it is a lot more work.
Have you also had a role in marketing the show?
One of my other hats is marketing and PR! I've been working very closely with the communications director. Day one when I signed on, I shared a list of journalists and other folks we needed to contact. And I’ve been doing a lot of outreach myself, because I think that when it comes from a host, it means more. I don’t pay attention when people send me press releases and I don’t expect other people to.
Overall, what’s been the most challenging part of producing your own show from pitch through to release?
Not having enough time. Because we’re dealing with sites that are owned by various corporate entities, it’s been difficult getting in touch with those folks and being able to get access to that property. If we had more time, we would be able to go to more sites and be able to talk to more people.
How did you respond to that? Was there a point where you just had to accept, ok this is what we got in the time we have?
Yes. And moving forward for the remaining episodes is a constant struggle of… I wish we had more time, because maybe there’s a better source, maybe there’s someone who has better information, but really just having to be okay with the fact that we have the information we need. This doesn’t need to be an hour or two hour long episode. It’s okay if it’s 30 minutes, it’s okay if it’s 20 minutes, let it be what it needs to be, Jordan! Relinquish control, it’s not your child.
If you were starting this project again, what would you do differently? Any advice for producers thinking of pitching their own show?
If I had all the money in the world, I would have been doing some of these interviews prior to pitching the show. It’s one thing to write out episode descriptions and a working episode title. It’s another when you actually have talked to people about the sites.
I really hope that more people go out on a limb and are able to pitch their own shows to organizations [NJ Spotlight News is a nonprofit]. Independent podcasting is definitely needed in these spaces. And I think it is easier to pitch non network organizations. It's going to be difficult to get a show greenlit with someone like CNN, as opposed to going to a smaller, possibly nonprofit outlet.
And also if you want to host your own show, it’s going to be near impossible that a CNN [type network] is going to allow you to host your own show unless you have a huge name. And it doesn’t mean more money either. I think that's the thing that people miss is – just because CNN picks up your show doesn't necessarily mean they're going to pay you more money than a nonprofit.
It’s still competitive. But I think [a non profit or similar organization] is looking at their audience and success in a different way than say CNN is. And especially if you’re not a named person that it'll be easier for nonprofits to say “Yes, our audience wants to listen to this” and take a chance on you.